Placing mental health and psychosocial support at the heart of the humanitarian agenda

With the global mental health crisis affecting one in four people – and nearly everyone within communities impacted by crisis including conflict and disasters – the need for mental health and psychosocial support (MHPSS) is more urgent than ever.

In our latest Fresh Humanitarian Perspectives podcast episode, the HLA’s Ka Man Parkinson speaks to Marie Dahl and Dr Victor Ugo from The MHPSS Collaborative about MHPSS in humanitarian contexts.

In this thought-provoking discussion, Marie and Victor share honest reflections on the challenges they face with their work, while also passionately and clearly setting out their vision to enhance the mental wellbeing of children, youth, and families in adverse settings.

Through a natural and candid dialogue between Marie and Victor, the duo highlight their thinking and approaches to interrogate and challenge current thinking and practices around mental health – including cultural concepts and understanding of mental health and a critique of Western-centric interventions and approaches – and they outline some of the steps they are taking and aspirations they have to drive forward the MHPSS agenda to place it at the heart of humanitarian action.

What I’ve learned and come to learn over the years is that the element of mental health and psychosocial wellbeing, it really is a question and a matter that touches every sphere of life.

We need to stop underestimating the role of language in facilitating convergence across sectors, across ways of life. It is so important. And it I think, for us, is the one thing that would drive cross sectoral integration and collaboration.

They delve into key themes such as localisation, youth engagement in MHPSS, and the pursuit of a shared understanding of MHPSS for improved cooperation and collaboration. Hear more about Marie and Victor’s aspirations to move towards a preventative approach to mental health support and to embed MHPSS into preparedness planning.

Whether you’re a practitioner or simply interested in this essential field, tune into this open and hopeful conversation filled with valuable expert insights on MHPSS from Marie and Victor.

Keywords: Mental health and psychosocial support, MHPSS, mental health interventions, research, collaboration, communication, localisation, humanitarians, humanitarian action, youth engagement, children, protection, wellbeing, preparedness planning.

Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music and Buzzsprout.

About the speakers

Marie Dahl is the Director of The MHPSS Collaborative – for children, youth and families in adversity. The Collaborative is a global hub for mental health and psychosocial support research, innovation, learning and advocacy, founded by Save the Children Denmark in 2018.

Marie has 15 years of experience in the humanitarian sector, and has worked in emergency response, interagency coordination, capacity building, advocacy, leadership and strategy development in various parts of the world. Her driving force is children and youths’ rights to protection, education, mental health and psychosocial wellbeing. She is based in Malmö, Sweden.

Dr Victor Ugo is the MHPSS and Youth Advisor at The MHPSS Collaborative, where his current focus is on building infrastructures for meaningful youth engagement and participation in mental health and psychosocial support initiatives. He has extensive experience in advocacy, policy influence, and resource mobilisation for adolescent and youth mental health programmes at community, regional and global levels.

Victor is passionate about driving systemic change to improve the lives of children, adolescents, and youth globally, with a particular focus on facilitating their capacity to develop innovative solutions and lead work relevant to their needs.

Ka Man Parkinson is Communications and Marketing Advisor at the HLA. She has served in communications roles in the international education and nonprofit sectors for the past 18 years. At the HLA, Ka Man leads on the creation of digital content, and manages the HLA’s podcast and webinar series. She has a personal interest in initiatives to support mental health and is a Mental Health First Aider with MHFA England. She is based near Manchester, UK.

Discover more

Learn more about the work of The MHPSS Collaborative through The MHPSS Collaborative website and LinkedIn page

Visit The MHPSS Collaborative Hub on the HLA’s digital learning platform Kaya (registration for Kaya is required for first time users).

You may also be interested in the podcast episode mentioned by Ka Man during this discussion focused on localisation and talent, featuring Bidjan Nashat.

Did you enjoy this episode? Please like, subscribe and share with someone who might find it useful!

Feedback/enquiries: please email info@humanitarian.academy or connect with us on social media.

The views and opinions expressed in our podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of their organisations. 

Podcast episode transcript

[Intro music] Welcome to Fresh Humanitarian Perspectives, the podcast brought to you by the Humanitarian Leadership Academy.

Ka Man [voiceover]: With the global mental health crisis affecting one in four people during our lifetime, and impacting nearly everyone in communities affected by crisis, mental health and psychosocial support has never been more crucial. I’m Ka Man Parkinson and today we’re shining the spotlight on mental health and psychosocial support – or MHPSS for short – in humanitarian contexts.

I speak with two incredible guests, Marie Dahl and Dr Victor Ugo from The MHPSS Collaborative. They together with their colleagues – a team of nine based in Denmark – are leading initiatives together with partners to place mental health at the heart of the humanitarian agenda.

In this conversation – which I found very inspiring, optimistic, as well as uplifting – Marie and Victor share candid insights on the challenges they face in their work while also passionately and clearly setting out their vision to build new knowledge and ways of improving mental health and wellbeing of children, youth and their families in adverse settings. So let’s jump right in and hear directly from them.

Ka Man: So welcome to the podcast, Victor and Marie, it’s an absolute pleasure to have you both join us today. Thank you so much for being here. Could you start by introducing yourself and sharing what has inspired you to enter the field of MHPSS? Could we come to you first, please, Marie.

Marie: Sure, it is an absolute pleasure on my side to be here on your podcast today. My name is Marie Dahl and I’m the director of the MHPSS Collaborative and I’ve been in the role since early 2022, and before then I worked 12 years or so with Save the Children in different parts of the world.

It’s been a great journey for me. I have a social work degree – international social work degree in my background – and then a Humanitarian Action master, and I’ve been working on general humanitarian response for many years, both in the field and from headquarter level.

And I’ve always kept this child protection focus and the social work part of me through my time in Save the Children and different places of the world, and what I’ve learned and come to learn over the years is that the element of mental health and psychosocial wellbeing, it really is a question and a matter that touches every sphere of life.

That’s what inspired me to go from being more on the psychosocial support side as a child protectionist initially, and then learn more about why it’s important to link all the way up to mental health. And then down again, if you’re referring to kind of you’re in a better place or you need more support.

And what really inspires me is the kind of multi-sectoral nature of MHPSS. A child or a young person doesn’t need just health services, or just the ability to be educated, or just the ability or the protection in case of difficult circumstances. It’s really about all of the different services coming together and providing a holistic response and support to children and their and their caregivers. So that’s really one of the key drivers and my inspiration to work with this this topic.

Ka Man: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much, Marie. What rich experience you have, and it’s really inspiring to hear you speak about that. So thank you once again for being here. So welcome, Victor, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself and share what’s inspired your journey in the field of MHPSS.

Victor: Thank you. Yeah, I’m Victor Ugo and I’m the MHPSS and Youth Advisor at The Collaborative. And a lot of my inspiration, I suppose I’ve had an unusual journey to, to get to this point. I’ve been at The Collaborative for two and a half years before. Then I was at United for Global Mental Health in an advocacy and campaigning role. And prior to that, I was running my own foundation in Nigeria, focusing on young people’s mental health and really just building young people’s capacity to take care of themselves and receive help optimal support.

And I have a background as a doctor. I finished med school, and I practiced for a couple of years and a lot of my entry into mental health has been facilitated by my lived experience in terms of someone who was diagnosed with depression and anxiety in med school and I had a very, a bit of a privileged – I would say privileged access to support – that I didn’t realise the others didn’t have.

And that’s why, when I left med school eventually, I thought about, how can I make sure that other people could receive that level of support that I did. So that’s essentially what inspired me to be in this in this field.

Ka Man: Thank you so much, Victor. Thank you very much for sharing and being so candid as well. So you obviously have these personal and professional experiences that really sort of drive you in your role. And it’s really interesting to see and hear how yours and Marie’s skillset and experiences seems to be very complementary and have a very – I can see that, I can understand why your expertise probably works together very well. So thank you once again to both of you.

So I’d like to hear a bit more about The MHPSS Collaborative. Could you tell us a little bit more about your work, what’s your mission, and perhaps some of the key priorities that you have right now, and possibly how you see your impact, the impact of your work evolving over time? Could we come to you first please, Marie.

Marie: Sure, so our vision is a world that protects and cares for the mental health and wellbeing of children, youth and their families. And our mission is really to build connections between different actors, both between local and global actors, and to build new knowledge and to build new ways of improving the mental health and wellbeing of children, youth and families living in adverse settings. So whether that is in context affected by conflict, climate change and displacement.

So that’s what we focus on. And some of the ways of key ways of working that we have is to convene different actors to come together around key challenges for child and adolescent mental health to innovate on solutions, and that you might not have come up with if you were just doing it yourself. So it’s really in the name, bringing people together to collaborate. And we might find gaps that are not addressed and then we can co-develop and share new knowledge and all the things that we learn, we really use to influence also at the donor and policymaker level, to have more investment and also more support to quality, mental health and psychosocial support interventions.

So some of our key priorities that have been there, off and on since we were founded in 2018. is really the education setting. So what about children’s wellbeing in school? How that affects their ability to have friends and to be well, and to learn well and to develop. And then we have the changing climate is another big priority for us. How do young people, how are they affected by the changing climate and the impacts that come, and the consequences and extreme consequences of different weather events, or whether it’s slow, creeping differences. How can we respond and learn more about it? And to respond in an appropriate way – and also in a way that young people themselves feel is relevant.

So those are two big key areas, education and climate. We also have a focus on preparedness increasingly, which is more of on the innovative side. What can we do before an emergency happens to prevent that mental health suffering?

And I’ll let Victor tell you more about the key area on youth engagement and mental health innovations and interventions for adolescent and youth mental health.

Victor: Yeah, I think for us when we talk about meaningful youth participation is much more of a lifestyle for us in terms of how we do things. Because we’ve, I think it’s obviously it’s a no-brainer that if you want to work in your people, it makes sense that you talk to them about what they’re interested in – and sometimes it feels so straightforward to me that when I don’t see it being done, it’s very, you know, disconcerting to see.

So we’re trying to then focus about what are some of the problems and the barriers for facilitating meaningful participation of young people? And we are seeing that some of the things that’s come true in our research and our scoping is that people talk about the availability of so many tools not knowing which one is relevant for your work.

And young people themselves talk about the tokenism that they experience. You know the idea of having, you know, the usual suspects, and just a couple of young people who are representative of other young people in every setting, in every situation, every event.

So we’re just looking at some of those problems that that people expressed. We thought it would make sense to build a meaningful infrastructure for young people’s participation where they can get is a big decentralised where they can be the ones, you know, applying for opportunities and reaching out as long as they can see it. But on the on the aspect of the entities that engage young people thinking through what are some of the tools that you need to facilitate your work to do better, meaningful engagement of young people? So that’s one aspect.

And the other aspect, of course, is like we’re thinking about, how can young people be more involved and more influenced to be interested in MHPSS as a field – and that’s something that you know we spend the past three years trying to get an answer to. And we’ve looked beyond the development and humanitarian sector for that, for the answer to that question. And a lot of that answer that we got came from the corporate and business sector.

When it comes to actually building capacity for young people, you find that they do it better, you know, they, because obviously they’re profit oriented, they tend to do it better. And some of the things that we learned from that was that you know, you look at some existing boot camps. There’s this for data analysis, for people that are trying to get into programming and the rest, and you find that they make a promise to say, we can take you, you know, from a lack of knowledge of this concept to a level that you can get a role in, a role for.

And I actually did try to take myself through that myself. I put myself as a case study and say what I want to do, ‘I want to learn Python and get to a level where I can be employed as a junior analyst’. And I tried that for six months, and I did get two interviews, for a job I wasn’t even interested in. Yeah, so it’s like, essentially, just trying to say…

Marie: That’s amazing.

Victor: Yeah, I’m just trying to, you know, to make to make a case for it. So I mean, that’s one aspect is that young people are interested in in actually making a career out of this. But we should be more desperate in the sector because we’re constantly having to send people to places to support in different settings of adversity. You know we have MHPSS for such support which obviously it is for a reason is that in so many contexts, where there’s emergencies, people need – they need help. They need people on the ground that can help to like channel resources, coordination, and all of that.

But I think the question we try to ask ourselves was, if in those contexts there was a level of preparedness in the system when it came to members of capacity, those levels of interest, it would make more sense for the people from that context be the ones developing the programmes and building interventions than you need. So it’s like the whole idea of community based MHPSS, it hinges on the existing capacity within the community to actually develop the programmes that they care for. And everyone comes in with good intentions, of course, but I don’t think it’s going to be possible for you to come in and know the community more than they know themselves.

And for an intervention to work properly, you need to know yourself properly, and you need to know what you’re assessing. That’s why we start with needs assessment. So it was like a question of like, there’s a gap here in the sector that needs filling. But it’s something that should be prioritised, and young people are well, very capable to fill that gap. So this is some of the prior things, you know, priority things that we’re looking at about for the portfolio on it.

Marie: And obviously on the final part of your question, what the impact could be for the future. It’s obviously a stronger workforce capacity over time. And really creating opportunities for young people to learn in their contexts, not necessarily go outside of their context, which is also privilege, privileged thing to do but to learn where they’re already and then be able to be part of the serving workforce with some time and then you basically have a better situation for people which is more relevant to the to the culture and the customs of that location. So it’s something that we’re very passionate about that it’s a localised approach.

Victor: Exactly. And I think one of the things we found was like in our scoping and trying to determine the feasibility of the outreach that we’re trying to take is that a lot of the existing fellowships, not a lot of them exist for MHPSS. But a lot of these traineeships and professional programmes for junior…

Marie: I did it myself, you know, back in the day it gave me amazing opportunities.

Victor: Yeah.

Marie: I went to somewhere else to learn. And then I came back to the North. And here I sit right? So we’d like to rather create a space in the –

Victor: Yeah, to develop that level of that entry level capacity for young people is really our priority. And a lot of the system wants that. They focused on leadership, of course, and I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that. I’m saying that a lot of them take beyond people away from their context to the West and teach them things to say, well, we’ve been teaching you how to how we do things here, so you can go back with that knowledge. There’s some value in that, but a lot of it, as to the brain drain that we see happening in so many of these contexts where people you know the push and the pull factors of brain drain. It’s like, you know, when they’re not existing structures on the ground to retain talent. That’s a push factor.

But there’s a lot of the pull factor that a lot of the West should be responsible for is when that happens it becomes difficult for them to see. You’ve taught me something that applies to your context. Why should I take you back? Why don’t I stay back and do it here, you know.

Marie: And there’s a risk of devaluing and the kind of knowledge and experience and understanding of context that that people have. Because you go and you learn somewhere else, you know, like a big fancy organisation or university and yes, it can be great knowledge. But is that, you know applicable? And are there, aren’t there different forms of knowledge in different places, and how do you, how do you work on power, sometimes imbalances, not sometimes quite often, that you have. You can hear us going off because we’re passionate! Yeah, back to you.

Ka Man: Oh, no, that’s brilliant. Do you know, it’s so exciting and also inspiring to hear you speak so passionately about your work. I think the model of the MHPSS Collaborative is very exciting because it sounds like that it’s quite an agile model that allows you to tune in and focus on areas that you see as a priority. So that youth engagement piece that you’re speaking of, Victor is very, very exciting. And I like how you’re looking to create meaningful pathways for youth. So it’s not just here listening to them…

Victor: Yeah.

Ka Man: It’s then using that to build pathways. So I think that’s really exciting. And then how you both then link that to the localisation agenda. It made me think about a recent podcast discussion that I had with Bidjan Nashat who was formerly of Save the Children International.

And he was saying that we are looking at localisation in the wrong way, that we need to. Well, he’s talking about the humanitarian sector, and how we’re looking at localisation generally. And he was saying that we need to look at it through a talent lens, how somebody who is a young talent in the Global South – to use that phrase very broadly – how, you know it’s not about we should be, you know, you’re speaking about brain drain and how we should be making the most of that talent, harnessing it in appropriate ways through the structures, through technology, etc to enable meaningful engagement in work. And yeah, contribute towards true, meaningful localisation. So it’s really interesting to hear you both speak about that and how it really intersects with you know what we’re all working towards.

So on that, linking to that, I’d love to talk a bit more about localisation, because it’s obviously central to what we’re doing. So from your perspective, what do you think it is about localisation that makes it essential for MHPSS work to be meaningful and sustainable?

Marie: Go ahead on that one, Victor.

Victor: Yeah. I mean, I agree with the previous statement you made about, you know, taking a different approach to localisation. But and when it comes to MHPSS, it becomes even more important. A lot of the ways that we’ve defined mental health. This one start from the very foundation has been very Western-driven a lot of the ways that we’ve defined mental work in in mental health is still Western driven. And it’s felt like, you know, every you know people on the ground have been told how to operate, what to do, what classification systems to use, you know, how to make sure that you know the interventions are built a certain way and different using a certain model.

And sometimes, I’m Nigerian right, it comes from like, when I was on the ground. When I when I get that top down, I would say, transmission of information or knowledge, there’s a tendency to want to resist it, because you’re saying, well, this is obviously Western driven. You’ve not taken my thoughts and my experiences into perspective while developing this. In fact, what actually, I can relate to you’ve classified with other things as other syndromes.

It’s like, I’m just going back to the very foundation of it is even the concept of mental health and MHPSS and in ways that is defined still very much like a Western-driven definition. So that’s a start. And what makes what would make it sustainable.

And I think about localisation as a word, and I just think it’s a word that for me should not, didn’t have to exist, if we’re doing things right way. Because we’re already doing things wrong where it’s like, oh, okay, we should check ourselves and make sure that everything that we do then applies a localisation lens. You know that we have people on the ground, people that are actually affected and involved being part of the process of building the solutions for themselves and relevant to their own communities. So I look at it from a perspective of is a right, is a normal thing to do. If I have a business, and I want to make sure that it works, I would talk to the people that are meant to be my audience. And I’m using that as an example and analogy in a way because if you don’t have a user audience test, you’re building something that works for you, not for others, essentially on your assumptions.

Marie: Yeah, builds on your assumptions.

Victor: Exactly. And that’s why that’s that is so important. And I just don’t, I struggle a lot to find why we need to keep justifying the need to localise when it’s something that it just makes sense. It’s more than just a buzzword for me, I think, is it’s truly the only way to ensure that you know the interventions that we build are meaningful and effective and eventually sustainable.
And I, and again, you know, circle back into some of the things that drives the interventions and programmes. Most of it is funding. The other things are policy. When it comes to the funding level. Of course, that’s informed by again, experts mostly in the West as well. Obviously, that’s that’s changing a lot these days. And that also means that even sometimes when they ask questions about sustainability, we find that in most contexts, where, in some context, in case examples and studies on this like, where they have been huge interventions done over time. When people leave, the programme ends.

Marie: Yeah, it’s a classic scenario.

Victor: Yeah, because there’s no embedding of the system in interventions from the start. There’s no ownership of the community. And that leads to wastage of resources that we say we don’t have. Yeah. So I’ll pause there.

Marie: Yeah, I’m just going to add one reflection also. Why, you know, using the word that we have localisation and why the essence of it is essential. I think it’s also if you look at supporting people in need. Everyone needs to eat, right, and even eating is going to be a cultural thing. You know the things that you eat, at least you’ll probably get full on most kinds of food, but when it comes to the construct of what is defined and what is experienced as mental health and being well that is hugely contextual. And that’s also where it it, you know, you might come in and and not get it right. Basically the intervention, the support that you want to do unless you are in an office, the context – same time open, of course, to learn from and with others – because you might have had a response in many different settings, and you can see some things coming out.

So it’s not about not having replicability, like doing an intervention and getting a similar result somewhere else. But it’s taking coming with a questioning approach. Rather so to ask some of the questions. Okay, so, but what is being well for you? What is a good mental health for you, and thereby how can it be strengthened and supported? So yeah, not come with a predefined notion so much, but to come in with a questioning mind.

Victor: And a humble approach.

Marie: And a humble approach that that makes people come together.

Then it’s also I mean, you can hear us. It is also like, it’s quite idealistic. We also know that when you come into a context, even within the region of a country, you have different views and different roles that people play, and people that get heard or not heard as well, so it’s not just between the kind of global and the international person coming in in a response setting. People are not homogeneous at the country level there are many diversities in the context as well.

So that’s why I think, coming with a with an open and a humble and a question focused mindset is key. But then, of course, in a very rapidly changing emergency context, and knowing that from having been in those contexts, of course, you can ask, where’s the time for that? And there needs to be some level of genericness. You know.

Victor: A structure framework.

Marie: Yeah, a structure framework that you can take departure from. So that’s the tension that we’re living in and acknowledging, but really trying to turn it so that the power in the voice is more in the hands of those who are affected than it definitely has been in the past. Yeah.

Ka Man: Thank you so much. Wow! You know, as you’re both speaking, the cogs in my brain are whirring with loads of thoughts, because I’m sort of coming at this quite a micro level, if you know what I mean, in my head. And then you’re shining a light on the whole, at this very macro level systemic challenges. Yeah, the meaning of mental health at a very fundamental level. And then it’s quite, quite deep and profound. We can go into that, quite a lot. I thought the analogy that you gave Marie about food, you know, like, like you say, if you eat, you can be, you can nourish yourself and be full. But yeah, are you well? I thought that was a really good fundamental question, and literally has given me food for thought.

So, yes, thank you so much for those insights. And linking very much to this speaking about the meaning of mental health, and being well, and our interpretation versus others interpretation of that construct, do you think MHPSS has its own language, and do you think that needs to be demystified further, for other sectors and actors to engage meaningfully?

Marie: I can give a first try at that one. What we seem to be running into time and time again is that language and terms and concepts, it’s key to our ability to communicate and to make ourselves understood by others. And by definition, when you talk about something that is important and a reality in each sector we are working a very siloed world. You have the health sector, the education sector, the social service sector. They all have different words for mental health and and wellbeing and it becomes a challenge many times, because you you’re not quite sure what does it mean between one context to another.

So we’ve been looking at this fact, and we’ve been recommending with many different actors for quite some time, that we come to some form of a common language around how we speak about mental health, so that we can start to address the issues jointly. I still want to be a little bit critical to that though, because you can’t also take language away from people, if a language makes sense in a context. If it’s harmful, you need to definitely address it right? The overuse of the word traumatised, for example. You need to think about, okay, what does it mean? Am I labelling people, you know, is that that’s a diagnosed condition, and I’m not the one who’s given the diagnosed like those things you might address.

But if you talk about more psychosocial support in a school setting and social emotional learning, that is fitting for the context. But then it’s just adding the layer that you can also talk about mental health issues is a big issue in many schools, so not stigmatising it or having it as part of your vocabulary to be able to refer, for example.

But, like respecting that, people need to be able to use different sets of words and concepts in their own working context, but a general better knowledge and a general, maybe common language that can bring the different service providers together. And then, if you come all the way down to kind of more of a family context or a community context there it’s, of course also a language that we’re talking about different actual languages, you know. Is it Swahili? Is it Farsi? Is it Bengali? All of these different contexts, they need to have a chance to reflect on what it means, and even that what we call sometimes mental health literacy can also really contribute to de-stigmatising the issue of mental health.

Mental health is not a bad thing – like poor mental health or bad mental health is – but mental health is a positive thing. And how can you maybe take a departure from the strength-based language around it as you go about trying to help people to communicate. Yeah, over to Victor.

Victor: Yeah, no, I think nothing that’s very valid in terms of how you know the boundary terminology, as we’d say, like, you know how we find certain words that mean different things across different sectors. The same work. Wellbeing means something completely different. Nutrition versus you know what it means in mental health. And if we don’t obviously define what it means across different concepts. We cannot find any way to actually – common denominator for it.

But I’m also looking at this from a different perspective, like I’ve done a lot of work on language and mental health in the past. Some of it personal, but some of it really just driven by frustration around what exactly is driving stigma in different contexts, and, like you mentioned with emotional literacy, like one of the reasons why stigma exists in most context, especially in context like mine, where I’m from it’s just the mystification of the language of it.

English language is very sometimes a very limited word in when it comes to like being descriptive. So in most of the context, like my country, we have modern tone or something languages. You don’t find the direct translation of existing English words when it comes to mental health in those contexts, but they do have words that better express emotions and feelings and disturbances in psychology, in the psyche, then we have in English language. So I even think that, you know, actually presents more opportunities to even start from that level to start to define, for get people to define for themselves.

And then we can go a bit more at higher levels than think right. Now we have some of the key terms and concepts come true about how people feel, how they express it. How can we then find how to cut across just the general way of living, because I think when we talk about nutrition, talk about poverty, talk about access to food, talk about mental health, like they are all about facilitating, living, like survival.

Marie: Yes, that’s, you know, survival and thriving and thriving. I think that being able to do what you want to do?

Victor: Yeah, and contribute to your community and have good relationships. Essentially, the definition of mental health, of health. So it’s really just like again, taking that step back to reflect on what it was even the language of wellbeing. How does it connect to what we now have as mental health and and psychosocial support. And that how does that then relate across different sectors to say, well, let’s define the concepts, the way that it works for us. And then let’s find how they connect.

And this is something that you know, we’re actively trying to work on. We call it ‘decoded’ – MHPSS Decoded. And we’re thinking about, what does it mean to actually just define, have an MHPSS 101 template, or a flyer, or something just like a glossaries page that people can go and see, not just individual words that are defined, but also concepts under MHPSS. That can make it easy for someone else who is not familiar with MHPSS to say, oh, okay, then I see how this integrates into my programme if I’m working in WASH, or if I’m working with children in emergencies, if I’m if I’m working nutrition, I’m working in even shelter. So and then, obviously, we can, as part of the process, even make suggestions as to the level of how these concepts can be integrated across different sites. But it’s an ongoing piece of work.

Marie: I guess it’s one of our, not overarching, but like the red thread in The Collaborative’s wish, and hope as well, is that people can see themselves, and what part of my work can contribute to the mental health and wellbeing of the people that I work with the people that I serve.

And not long ago, people might not have heard ever heard of the MHPSS term. And now it’s much more present and visible, and still question marks around it, because it might be described differently by different actors.

But I think it’s really, yeah, making it hit home somehow and understanding it from a very basic level. And then being able to relate it to your own context and your own work. I think one of the reasons actually coming back to the first question on being inspired. When I moved from more in like the protection side of things – that’s protection from neglect, abuse and violence, which is very important. But looking at MHPSS, that’s more encompassing the whole somehow. What inspires me is really like, if you can in any way support someone to be well more, then they’re able to do all the different things in their life. It’s not the end goal isn’t just to be well. The end goal is to be able to do what it is that you want to do. And I think when you come at it from that perspective, then it hits home for people.

And just to say that Covid we experienced from a systemic level that Covid just made it hit home for so many people, because just being isolated in your home, it’s not a nice feeling, and it might cause a lot of emotional distress all the way to more difficult emotions and even conditions.

Victor: Yeah, and we talked about, we’ll see how the link between that and gender-based violence and violence against children spike, you know, it was just lots of relationships that people could now make connections. I mean, we could have, we have done that in the past, but like they could understand, and they could at a personal level.

Marie: Yeah, whether you were like some sorry, but, like rich policy maker, you were also confined, and you might also have fear, and you might have loss.

So we were all at a moment in time globally, a bit more connected, I’d say, in in starting to understand that it is really important. And yeah, we can work ourselves to death in the normal, grind in life and not think about it so much – just push through, push through, you know. But if there are more challenging things that people are going through.There’s going to be an outfall of that. And there needs to be an understanding of each other and a support, or what can we then do to be, get to a better place and have good relationships and be able to do our work and our studies. Yeah, I think it’s just interesting point in time, then it’s sometimes quickly forgotten as well.

Victor: It is.

Marie: Unfortunately, I just want to say that as well, and that’s where the voices for the importance of continuing to promote mental health, to prevent mental health conditions from worsening. When you have that ability and power, it is just so important. It’s it’s an agenda. It’s never going to die. It’s just going to have a bit of an ebb and flow, and it’s being a voice for that. Also that we really hope to be as The Collaborative.

Victor: Yeah, I think to just round up on that. And that question is like, I think we need to as not just as a sector, but you know, as people ourselves. Stop underestimating the role of language in facilitating convergence, you know, across sectors across, you know, ways of life. It is so important. It is the most important in communication is language. And it, I think, for us, is the one thing that would drive cross sectoral integration and collaboration.

Marie: And without language, you can’t collaborate. Ta-da!

Victor: Exactly.

Ka Man: Oh, brilliant! I love that. Thank you so much. Honestly as you’re both speaking, you really like so many sort of nuggets of, you know pearls of wisdom and insights that are sparking lots of thoughts in my mind. I’ll have to continue the conversation with you on a lot of these points that you made. I thought, Yeah, I agree, obviously, as I work in communications, I think I’m particularly interested in this piece around language and shared common understanding.

And yeah, I often reflect on how the global pandemic, sadly, you know, obviously gave us all that shared experience. So some kind of common understanding around mental health because we were experiencing something similar, no matter where we were in the world.

And one, I feel like positive effect, is that it’s much more widely spoken about in society at large, and particularly in schools. So, for example, my son’s primary school, they talk often around mental health. It’s something they, in fact, I think they have a weekly session.

Marie: Wow.

Ka Man: Yeah. And they talk about, they have sessions on special educational needs, awareness around neurodivergence, you know. So I think he’s already got this vocab at the age of 7, you know, talking about feelings and how people’s brains work. So I think the pandemic gave the school that impetus to put that on the agenda, and I find that encouraging. And yeah.

Marie: Yeah, so one of the silver linings, I would say in a very horrible time.

Ka Man: Yes, yes, exactly, So, would you be able to share maybe something that you’re working on right now that you feel is particularly innovative or impactful for MHPSS. And also on the flip side, maybe a barrier or challenge that you may face in sort of bringing this along. So could I put that to you first, please, Marie?

Marie: Yeah, so you start on, imagine challenging, okay, yeah. So what we decided a couple of years ago, to start doing was to enter into asking questions around preparedness for mental health. And it’s what we call it’s the one of the four portfolios that we call the emerging challenges.

It was initially kind of the overarching name for any topic that we looked at the changing climate, education in emergencies. But then those two kind of areas of work, they became more consolidated, and then we said, well, what is it that we, what is on the horizon of what’s going to be a threat to the mental health of populations in in different settings, to their families and the children in them. So we wanted to see if we can – so I’m a humanitarian generalist by training and also by quite a number of years of experience – so the language for me is very familiar, and I found that it wasn’t really there a few years ago.

So we wanted to start to bring humanitarian experts for general humanitarian response into the same rooms as MHPSS experts, and see what could transpire. So it’s something that we hope to do more officially in the upcoming year, have a bit of a connections space to discuss.

But what we are seeing, what we believe is that as anything, it’s hard to get funding for preparedness, intervention for disaster risk reduction, because the thing that is going to, you know, cause havoc hasn’t happened yet. So it’s easy to put that to the side and just go response response, response, response. But then you’re in a vicious cycle of never getting to the preparedness stage. But we kind of see two different levels of where there could be more work done.

One is at a kind of global and data level. What is the data around the implications and the impacts of war and disaster on populations on the mental health and who collects that data and so that we can see what more do we need to do? What are the implications, and how do we need to address them?

And to be able to do that – back to the language questions – how do you define mental health, and and who collects the data. So that’s one ambition that we have to kind of start to work for key actors who do follow and who do collect data on emergencies and the impacts of them to be more knowledgeable and to be speaking more the same language on how to collect data for that. Because if you have data that is more consistently collected, then you can use it for foresight. And you can use it for predictive modelling.

So the second point on the emerging challenges portfolio is to really look at a very local level. What already happens in a community that maybe knows that they’re about to have, you know, there’s political unrest. What’s going to happen? What can they do? What do they do already? How can we facilitate a process of community wellbeing, planning to see what are the strengths that are there? What are the usual ways of supporting when members of the communities are lost or something happens? And how can you do then strengthen that and have communities find the agency themselves to see, we could actually do this that will reduce the impact on mental health of the people in our community, if and when you know, the flood comes, or a spike in in a conflict or so. So that’s a couple of different ways that we’d like to address the emerging challenges to mental health of children and young people today.

Victor: And I think one of the, you know, just to really centre that like the reason why this is so important is, we are constantly reacting. We’re constantly reacting. And I say that as an image versus field sector we’re constantly reacting to rest, you know, to be part of responses. We’re not part of preparing for emergencies, and that’s I think, that’s pretty dangerous in this current climate, in this current world, where there’s escalating crisis. There’s huge displacement. There’s about 48 million children displaced just in the last year. We’re seeing, you know, rising displacement in Ukraine 2 to 9 million just one year. We are seeing Gaza being one of the hardest, one of the hardest spots for one of the most dangerous spots for children like, you know, we’ve seen all of this happen in Sudan, Yemen, and Syria. And we don’t, we constantly thinking, okay, how can we then build back better, which is valid, but it misses the first step, which is, we should already be prepared within the systems at the systems of an individual level.
And that prevents a lot of waste of resources as well. Because if we’re struggling, we have just funders committing just 19% to funding for humanitarian responses, which means we don’t have enough money to protect children and young people who need that protection. So we we’ve literally not well equipped to address the emerging needs.

And governments, organisations, individuals, communities, need better tools and better materials and frameworks to be prepared for the next emergency which is going to happen and not being. I’m not being catastrophic.

Marie: It’s just it’s just life, isn’t it?

Victor: That’s the world we live in. So we are trying to say every crisis, everything that has been termed crisis and mental crisis is a thing now has been thought about. They call it epidemic of youth, mental health in different contexts in different countries. People think about what is the vaccine for it. You know, how can we be more preventative?

So we’re thinking, what is the next – what is the MHPSS vaccine? What can it be? And to do that obviously, we need to take a step back and ask those questions at a different levels like convene people that are thinking about similar things, but also not thinking about it in the same room.

And then think about what does it mean to have a community planning methodology, you know, that helps us assess how people on the ground to responding to when disasters happen, or when little – bad things happen at different levels. And then how can we reinforce those existing systems?

And then then think about what? What kind of what is the playbook for governments and ministries and systems and communities for when something does happen.

Marie: Yeah, many countries have disaster risk reduction plans, national plans. Do they even have ever mentioned something on that. Mental health is also affected. How is then, that incorporated in the preparedness plan of a national level? So but it of course, starts, I think, at a community level, and the learning that we hope to facilitate with different actors in a few different contexts, to inform what Victor’s calling a playbook, that can then, you know, reviewed and taken up and adapted for different contexts in the future. So we’re super excited about this. Yeah, it’s quite exploratory. And again, really hard to find funding for. But we’re committed. That’s even, you know, gives us more inspiration to drive to to go after those potential outcomes.

Victor: And I think it’s a good thing for us in terms of – what deciding – I’m not going to go so in depth into this, because it’s something we’re still very much in. The definitive process of is that we we’re thinking about. What does it mean to actually change the way the knowledge ecosystem right now is, it’s like how we how can we flip the knowledge ecosystem? And I and I can say when I say, knowledge, I mean research, non research, knowledge.

And we started about more than 18 months ago to start to question ourselves first, you know, like we have so many assumptions, and, you know, like questioning process, and then within ourselves, and then going a bit more within the partners and and the people you’re connected to ask exactly, just to see if there was a problem there that we’re dealing with.

So to set the stage for that is, I think, that we’ve had so much happen in the last two decades when it comes to evolution of how people relate to knowledge and consume knowledge and use it. Social media became more popular, technology became more integrated. Even in so many contexts, so many contexts in global majority, there’s so much in depth, infiltration and integration of mobile use and technology and data. So that has happened.

But when it comes to how we produce knowledge – whether it’s research or non-research again – and how we predict that people would consume knowledge, we haven’t had an evolution in that. I mean, apart from social media toolkits that we have, you would know this as a communications person, I think we, you know, now and then we finish projects or we finish a huge resource. And we have social media toolkits, and we promote it. Apart from that, we haven’t necessarily actually moved drastically forward in addressing some of the changes in behaviours around knowledge that people currently have which has changed from 20 years back.

So we’re asking ourselves a question around, what can we do? And I think it’s quite straightforward for us. It’s like we’re thinking, we need to develop even more questions and not be the ones answering those questions. We want to go down to the level that we claim to be working for and working with, to ask them around to check those behaviours around knowledge. You know. What do you, how do you consume knowledge? Where do you find the knowledge you use to inform your work as a policymaker?

Marie: What knowledge is useful for you.

Victor: Yeah, and not make any assumptions like we do. Now that if we produce this knowledge, you know, like, I think an assumption I always mention is that policymakers will always be read policy briefs. That is not true. It doesn’t work in my context. They might read what the newspaper they read, the front page of the newspaper, or they listen to people talk about it in social media, and if it’s a social media trend they get influenced by it, or they get shamed into doing something about it. It’s not a policy brief that we send. They question that every time.

And we have been so many contexts where WhatsApp broadcasts is the quickest way of passing knowledge and information to people. It worked during Covid, but it was misinformation that was being passed through WhatsApp broadcast. So it’s like, how can we reverse engineer those processes to use those existing and working mechanisms and integrations to our work? So I mean it like, I said, it’s like, it’s still a very fluffy concept. We’re very, very excited about the questioning process that we’re going through. And we will start actually some of that from next year.

Marie: Yeah, it’s about bridging knowledge and action. I think the the key question that researchers have been asking themselves for many, many years. But trying to come at that from a from a community approach. Yeah. Looking forward to it.

Ka Man: That’s absolutely amazing to hear you both speak about this work. It’s honestly, I can see that you, you and your team, you’re sort of sensitively inquiring, you know, interrogating the sort of system and getting really under the skin of the challenges that we face. But what I found very inspiring and exciting are the tangible steps, actions, playbooks – things that you speak of to make progress in ways that you can.

I think this piece that you are looking into on preparatory, I can’t say that word, action preparedness is really yeah, thought provoking, actually, because it’s not something that I’ve considered. Like you say, Marie, around preparedness plans is common in the sector. It’s what people do. But to embed MHPSS into that is, yeah, is quite radical.

But I like the fact that you’re taking that action to do that. And I really hope that people listening, sort of that piques people’s interest, and I hope that you can find broader support for that, because it sounds so, so vital.

So sadly, we’re running out of time now, honestly, I’m not just saying this, I could continue this discussion with you. But I just wonder, before we wrap up, is there anything else you’d like to highlight or share with our listeners?

Marie: Well, maybe just to say that there is a lot of information out there, but what it comes down to, I think something we haven’t touched on is really how peer-to-peer approaches, I think, is a great key when it comes to mental health in in difficult circumstances. And the value of having one good friend or having one adult in your context, that you can confide in where there are spaces there that the peer to peer approaches for supporting each other are there with good support around the system. I think it’s a really valuable and important intervention that needs more highlights.

Victor: But yeah, I think for me, it’s just an acknowledgement, of course, that for so many people listening, some of the things that we might have explored might be very lofty. And obviously we try and simplify as much as possible. But you know, for some people, if you don’t know if you if you’re trying to learn more about MHPSS you’re trying to know more about like you know the field and the sector, and some of the things some of the work that we’re doing. And along with other partners we, we do have a page on Kaya Connect. We do have a hub, that sort of The MHPSS Collaborative just present, some of the courses that we developed together with the with amazing guys, HLA, and we’re actually currently working on something that’s going to be available next year. We call it the Fundamentals for now, MHPSS Fundamental. So if you have no knowledge about MHPSS, you can just go into it, and it just introduces the very concepts and principles you should be aware of, and some of the ways that you can actually integrate yourself into it, but also integrate it into your work. So is that something to look out for.

Marie: Hmm, yeah, we have the privilege of developing that both, together with the Humanitarian Leadership Academy and also with Save the Children as a whole, but really with an intention for the key content there to be interagency valuable. And we’re very excited to do that.

There’s also another course that we’ve had the opportunity to work on which is on adolescent mental health and wellbeing in conflict settings that one’s already available. And we’re currently also adapting it for disaster settings. Also, in a couple of different languages.

So it’s really great to have the opportunity to to speak to you. It’s been a very engaging conversation. And also gives you a bit of a time to step back and just think together. Sometimes the day just rushes past. So great to talk to you, Victor, in a confined space like this. But yeah, stay tuned. Our LinkedIn account is also pretty active, and we put out any resources or webinars or thoughts and opportunities for engagement. It’s usually our key communication channel.

Ka Man: That’s brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and for shining a light on some of the work that you do with The MHPSS Collaborative. I’m sure you’ve really inspired our listeners, and I hope that they will go and check out your Kaya resources on kayaconnect.org and check out The MHPSS Collaborative Hub. So yeah, so once again, a huge thank you. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, and I’ve learned a lot from hearing you speak.

So thank you once again, and thank you to our listeners for joining us for today’s episode of Fresh Humanitarian Perspectives from the Humanitarian Leadership Academy.

Note: This transcript was generated using automated tools and is intended for reference purposes only. While efforts have been made to check its accuracy, minor errors or omissions may remain.